Indy2 – Lets Not Rush.

A week after the Holyrood Elections I have been having a think about when is the right time for another referendum?

I don’t accept the once in a generation argument favored by unionists and Yoons. I don’t care if Alex Salmond said this during the campaign or not, I just don’t think it is any politicians gift to give and the unionists from Cameron/Davidson to Rennie/Dugdale can say all they want about denying another one, they won’t dare if voters decide they want another.

We have seen the arguments about respecting the vote in 2014, we have seen the economic arguments stating we would have had a deficit of 9.4% on independence day, resulting in a big black hole of 10 Billion Pounds. The Tories, sorry, the Ruth Davidson Party believe that they have been given a clear mandate in coming second last week with 22% of the vote and that she is the defender of the union. Willie Rennie and Kezia Dugdale think the same but does anyone really care about what they think anymore! I know I don’t have that much interest in their opinions on this issue as we will never change their minds.

Channel 4 News stated that support for independence continues to remain around the 47% mark and 53% for remaining in the union. It may be a little tighter than that now but probably not much. The continuing difficulties with the economy are highlighted as the main reason to vote no, Better Together, pooling and sharing resources and all that guff. There are of course those that will never vote YES no matter what happens to the country or to them personally, I have debates with some on social media, and like the extreme YES voters, you won’t change their minds either way as reason does not factor into their thinking, or logic for that matter.

The SNP manifesto says the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is “clear and sustained evidence” of majority support for independence, or if there is a “significant and material” change in circumstances, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will. There are some calling for another referendum sooner rather than later, Jim Sillars is asking voters to vote to leave the EU in next months EU Referendum in the belief that it will trigger another referendum very quickly. A recent Ipsos MORI poll for STV reported that, regardless of circumstances, 58% would support another referendum in the next five years and nearly two-thirds would support another referendum in the next decade.

I believe that another referendum on Scottish Independence is inevitable, most if not all countries that started down the path of an independence journey got their in the end, just look at the end of the British Empire for proof of that. The argument appears to be less about if and more about when.

I am not in a huge rush to have Indy2, not because I think we would lose, but because we need to continue to take stock. There were mistakes made during the campaign in my opinion, especially currency and the unelected head of state issue. I don’t think that the UK leaving the EU necessarily constitutes one unless there is an overwhelming majority screaming for it.

I also think that the United Kingdom is on it’s last legs, I really believe that. Our voting system for UK elections with first past the post is a con and returns far too many minority governments, the Scottish system does this too sometimes but is at least slightly more representative, however I don’t think people will put up with that for much longer. The current non debate about potential election fraud by the Conservatives continues to highlight the unfairness in the system, as does the constant ignoring of the 56 SNP MPs at Westminster in a Parliament that demonstrates that it neither listens or is interested in what Scotland has to say.

When you take into account the above and add the continued gap between the rich and poor, austerity that allows the wealthy to get wealthier on the backs of those with the least (Thatcher’s trickle up economy), the fantasy lifestyles of the Windsor’s being stuck down our throats every time wee George farts, and the Tories continued drift towards more extreme right win intolerance it starts to look like the UK is very much winning the YES argument for us.

I would like us to take our time but I would also like to see an official YES organization on the go again, YES was a broad Church with people across all political divides and none. From all cultures and races that make up modern Scotland, and from all economic groups. The arguments for independence are bigger than the SNP and the media must not be allowed to frame the debate in this way and neither should the SNP be allowed to assume that it is only their argument when it belongs to all of us who feel passionate about it.

If we are to change hearts and minds then lets not rush into another referendum, lets remember that it is greater than politics or money in so many ways. It is about the kind of democracy we want, it’s about where we want power to lay, where we want decisions made and by whom. Our argument is strong, our argument is just and in my opinion our argument is in the best interests of Scotland so lets please take our time, lets not argue amongst ourselves, lets not lose sight of the end game.




    The Tories are trying to make indyref2 a big issue, Willie Rennie is trying to make the MOA with China a big issue, Labour – well, who cares. The Greens are pro Indy along with the SNP who agree that when the voters decide, that is when it will happen.

    i.e, it is not (yet) an issue.

    I think one of the PO’s first jobs should be looking at Willie Rennies written questions, and skelp him on the lug for wasting money chasing nothing.

    Second job is telling the Tories to stop banging on about something which is not yet on the political horizon and only wastes valuable debating time on the real issues of the day for Scotland.
    It would set the tone for his time in office.

    • Anonymous

      Not sure about Mackintosh as PO but the thought of Lamont was enough to make me cringe. I don’t think indy2 is an issue yet either and would like to see things settle down a little for a while and for people to take stock. There will be pressures on the SNP, esp around the new diddy powers, so they need to just take a deep breath and take a slow approach for a while. I think the fact the SNP don’t have a majority is a good thing, it will force them to find consensus with other people. I am all for PR in elections and I don’t necessarily think coalition need be a bad thing, although you do need to have conviction and courage, unlike the Liberals. The Tories will keep banging on about the referendum as they have since the last one while accusing the SNP of always going on about the referendum. The Liberals are no where for a while and we will just have to see how the Greens get on, they have been loaned a lot of people’s votes and if they let the YES voters down they will suffer as have Labour and the Liberals. Interesting times.

      Thanks for commenting.


  2. lanark

    We have to be patient. Jim Sillars is a good orator and I don’t doubt his belief but he is too radical. Independence is radical enough.

    When the next vote comes, I can see Ruthie taking Darling’s role as Bitter Together spokesnumpty

    • Anonymous


      I like Jim Sillars and I think he is someone worth listening to but I think he is wrong on this one, we need to take stock and get our ideas more refined. I also think that Westminster moves closer to falling apart every day so in some ways are doing the YES jobs for it, but I would like to see the YES movement re-form, doesn’t have to be slap bang thank you mam but some local groups, if they are not already, to keep working away in the background, building up the case for independence. Now that I am no longer a part of any political party that is something I would get involved in. Ruth Davidson I think/hope is away to be found out big time and what people will find is someone with no ideas and no vision, just a spokesman for the Tories in the north.

      Thanks for commenting.


      • lanark

        I like listening to Sillars too. One reason being he speaks with an old Ayshire accent that reminds me of my Grandparents and their generation. (Are our regional dialects dying out?). I find a reassurance when I hear it. I thought he was good in the debate with Forsyth before the referendum and the Question Time broadcast around the same time where he was disgracefully interrupted by old Britnat Dimbleby every time he was making his points.

        • grumpyscottishman


          I always tell myself not to watch QT but I end up watching it most weeks, even though it gets me really angry. Dimbleby is shocking in how bias he is but that’s why he’s there on the show. The politicians don’t help themselves though with the bullshit that they come out with most weeks, just tell the f truth we can take it. I like Sillars though.

          Thanks for commenting.


  3. Tedious Tantrums

    As the recent parliament elections proved that the system is corrupt as failed politicians still managed to get seats. Not winning them tho. Anyone wishing to gain Scottish Independence should use the mantra of two votes for the SNP. Our aim is independence and we need to vote for that at every opportunity.

    • Anonymous


      I would agree that I am also not a huge fan of the voting system and favor PR across the board to be honest. I split my vote as I always do at Holyrood elections, I have never given any party both votes but I do understand why many were calling for that. As far as indy2 goes I would like to see the broader YES movement building again and taking the lead. There is a danger in allowing the media to frame the debate around SNP v Tory, I don’t think that politicians will convince enough people to change their minds but people like us may well do. Certainly a take it a little slower approach for me, I appreciate the Tories will reek havoc in that time but that may again help us out.

      Thanks for commenting.


  4. Pingback: 2017 is TOO SOON for Indy2 | Grumpy Scottish Man

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